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Post by thebeezer on Oct 21, 2009 21:16:48 GMT -5
By any measure, season 3 of the WiiGA was a tremendous success - we had 27 players complete all 12 amateur rounds and 18 more players that finished at least 1 round. Giacamo and all of the other admins deserve a lot of credit for enhancing the format and making it more open and competitive. To take it to the next level, I would like to propose the following changes for season 4 to further our goals of increased participation and more competitiveness with the integrity and sportsmanship that are hallmarks of the WiiGA. - Increase the number of playoff participants in the Amateur tournament to 16
- 4 spots would be reserved for the top 4 scorers in the played rounds
- 8 spots would be reserved for the top 8 scorers throughout the regular season using a handicapping system based on season 3 results (excluding the previous 4)
- 4 spots would be reserved for the top 4 scorers among new players (defined as those that did not complete at least 4 rounds in season 3)
- The playoffs would then be handicapped using the performance during the regular season of season 4
- PRO playoffs would be unchanged from season 3
While I am sure this can be improved and welcome additional ideas and thoughts, I think this basic framework would allow us to make competition considerably more interesting and open while adding minimal work to the administration of the tournament. Looking forward to next season!
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Post by putterrr on Oct 22, 2009 6:03:58 GMT -5
While I think a handicap system of some sort is a great idea, i would not be comfortable with awarding spots based on whether you competed in season 3. There are over 200 hundred members here and a way needs to be found to generate more participation. Awarding spots based on past participation could discourage participation by excluding people.
This site is for ALL members and everyone should have equal opportunity to qualify for season 4 playoffs based only on season 4 results. Lets come up with a handicap system so everyone feels they can compete regardless of their skill level.
Just my thoughts and not because I'm a new member.
Putterrr
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Post by longhowie on Oct 22, 2009 9:30:06 GMT -5
Hmmm. I don't know how you can base qualifying for "playoffs" on anything other than performance during the season. A qualifying round (or rounds) would only make sense if you wanted to limit participation in the season series....which I don't think is a good idea. To me, the season should be "open" and any playoff would be based on performance during the season. Now if you want to allow more golfers in the playoff series that is ok with me but only if it is based on performance.
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giacomo
Co-Founder
The vessel with the pestle...
Posts: 1,295
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Post by giacomo on Oct 22, 2009 9:54:17 GMT -5
Here are some thoughts to throw into the mix:
I'm all for increasing participation, and moving to a 16 player playoff seems reasonable. We'd still need to get the additional rounds in within a 2 week time frame, though.
I'm not sure that the notion of reserving spots appeals to me, though. While a best score might be worth recognizing, the point of using season results is to reward those who perform well consistently. After all, the playoffs (if there are 16 players) consist of 4 rounds, not 1.
The problem of how to fit new members into the mix has always challenged us, and we've tried various techniques such as the makeup week in Season 2 to try to adjust for it. The truth is, the players take care of it themselves. New members have a habit of picking up chat room games over and over until they get the rounds in. TheJokker did this when he joined and wound up at the top of the charts in his first season. This is what is behind the re-write of one of the rules:
"4. A regular season of the WiiGA will be comprised of a set of tournaments plus a playoff. The conditions for each tournament are defined at the outset of a season, including the number of tournaments that comprise the season, the settings and format for each tournament, the scoring, and the length of the season from start of the first tournament to completion of the playoff. It is up to each member to visit the threads containing the tournament settings, to be responsible for meeting the requirements of the tournaments and their settings, and to meet the time frames for the conclusion of the regular season and of each round of the playoff. Failure of a member to complete all the tournament rounds by the ending date of the regular season may cause that member to be ineligible for the playoffs. Scores submitted after the closing date for the regular season or for any round of the playoff will not be counted. Please note that new members added during a season are eligible to participate in the season in progress, but must still meet all tournament conditions, including deadlines for completion of rounds to be eligible for the playoffs."
I find this kind of exploration extremely helpful, and would encourage everyone to keep putting up ideas. Expanding to 16 playoff participants is certainly something we should consider based on season performance. And if there's some way to do a wild card play-in that someone could suggest, that might make some sense to. Anything we come up with, though, needs to conform to the rules.
G.
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dadgotgame
Co-Founder[M0n:14467]
harley girl rocks
Posts: 457
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Post by dadgotgame on Oct 22, 2009 10:21:49 GMT -5
hey guys how about a flight system in the am side of the playoffs.we could play the season as one then have a championship flight consisting of the 10 highest ranked sim players and a 1st flight consisting of the next top 10 players in our season . all being determined by the top 20 in our season rankings.this would generate more participation in our season by giving new and lessor skilled players the oppertunity to make the playoffs with a chance to win their flight thus having a true am champion from the championship flight and a champion from the 1st flight representing our new and our up and coming players.. just a thought.
dad
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Post by psgby on Oct 22, 2009 11:26:43 GMT -5
As a lesser player I like the idea put forth by dadgotgame. With new players coming in might need a 2nd flight.
For those with timing differences and associated problems matching up during the season tourny's:
I am retired and available at various times during the day, weekends and some evenings on CST. If I had advance notice and we could set up regular playing times I would gladly help anyone in getting their rounds in.
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Post by putterrr on Oct 22, 2009 12:43:36 GMT -5
I like the flight suggestion, but why stop at 2 flights. You could have 8 players per flight and as many flights as there are golfers who completed the season. (adjustments could be made based on actual numbers)
With only 8 players, that means only 3 matches per round. Those of similar season records would fight it out and you would end up with 3 or 4 winners. Winners of each flight could challenge the winner of a different flight (for bragging rights) after it's all done. The challenges would not be organized officially but you could suggest playing conditions and course.
Putterrr
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Post by longhitter on Oct 22, 2009 21:34:43 GMT -5
i think we shouldnt be ranked on season 3, since new members wont be ranked. i was unable to play seaon 3 do to confusion, but im ready for season 4. when does it start?
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Post by thebeezer on Oct 23, 2009 17:38:15 GMT -5
putterrr, it's interesting you mention that as I was pondering setting up some tourneys exactly along those lines to run with the season 3 playoffs for everyone outside the top 8. Just didn't do it due to laziness, I guess.
Good feedback on these ideas. I guess the big question at this point is why so many WiiGA members don't play in the tourneys. Is there any way a mass PM could go out to everyone that wasn't in season 3 asking why they didn't participate and what would make them interested in season 4 (if anything)? I'm concerned that we might be trying to fix the wrong things here.
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dadgotgame
Co-Founder[M0n:14467]
harley girl rocks
Posts: 457
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Post by dadgotgame on Oct 23, 2009 17:50:46 GMT -5
my opinion and its strictly an opinion as i do not have any facts to back it up is that a lot of members dont play in our season trnys is because they feel that they do not have a chance to to make the playoffs much less win it. this is why i proposed a flight system to assure that more members would be involved in the playoffs.just increasing the field will not give a lot of the beginners and up and coming players a chance to compete and win against players of similar skills. just a thought to try and get all members involved. this was my first venture into the pro set trny and it was enjoyable. if it will help get more members involved i will gladly not play in the am trnys. i played them this season because they were a lot of fun with no intention of playing in the am playoffs regardless of how i fared on the pro side. had the jokker and a few more of our grt players participated in the pro trnys this yr i doubt i would have made the playoffs but i tell you it was a blast and a valuable learning experience just playing.take care and remember to have fun my friends.
dad
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Post by psgby on Oct 23, 2009 20:15:59 GMT -5
27 players completed all rounds in Season 3 Ams. The average score was 59.77 and ranged from 53.2 to 75.7. 16 players had a lower avg. score and 11 a higher avg. score than the tourney avg.. and 16 players went to the playoffs. 59% of the players were lower and 41% higher than the avg. So 41% of the participants were left out of any playoff action.
It is not my intention to delude myself in thinking I would have a chance in beating any of the 16 in the playoffs and even most of those that didn't get included. At the end of the season some of us were playing a lot better than our avg. score from Season 3. It is at this point I began to feel left out of the action and inconsequential.
Is it Wiiga's intention to reward the top players for their skills and consistent play via playoffs and let others participate in Lab games until the next season starts. Wouldn't it better serve all the members to provide some means to participate in playoffs with others with similar skills. Even though we may enjoy playing rounds with the better golfers to learn what we can from them, I can't believe anyone enjoys getting beat by 10-15 strokes continuously. I would think everyone would like a chance to play with someone with similar skills and a have chance to win in a tournament situation with their improved skills.
I would like to see Wiiga playoffs include everyone in a playoff setting and not exclude anyone that has participated in all rounds in a season. Wiiga is a great place with great members and administrators and I hope to see it grow and made better.
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Post by putterrr on Oct 23, 2009 21:07:17 GMT -5
I would like to see Wiiga playoffs include everyone in a playoff setting and not exclude anyone that has participated in all rounds in a season. Wiiga is a great place with great members and administrators and I hope to see it grow and made better.
Someone should give that man a cigar!
In the last season that I participated in under the DGA banner, I was responsible for my share of rank decimation. I did not enjoy winning most of the time and at the end I came up with a way to level the playing field. I played number of RANKED games using only my irons as my way of giving my opponents strokes. I found it quite challenging and those I played still had to shoot low 50"s to beat me but it was a challenge for me and for them. I didn't tell them I was doing this and it was the most competitive golf I played.
In todays league we play UNRANKED games so finding a way of giving strokes to level things out would only improve competition. Who really cares if you don't win all the time.
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Post by quistopher on Oct 23, 2009 21:54:18 GMT -5
I don't worry about the playoffs, I just play for fun. As long as I am competitive its fun for me but I only play AM. I can't get the results I want playing Pro. Maybe if I played more, I could but I am a casual player, I don't play that often.
I would like a some kind of handicapping system or flight during the season.
If you want to rank new players, why not have them post their stats from Tiger. Perhaps the online stats and/or the local profile stats.
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Post by neil29679 on Oct 24, 2009 5:37:13 GMT -5
ive been a member here for a few seasons now and see the same issues discussed time and again. 1) how to increase participation. 2) how to make it more competitive for all members. various different formats have been tried and ultimately the most successfull have been the simplest. much like the season just completed.
HANDICAPING. this has come up several times but untill the actuall games gives us a way to implement this it will allways be too difficult to achieve successfully.
PLAYOFFS. increasing spots is a must. in order to encourage participation members need to feel they have a goal to aim for. dad/putterrs proposal of multiple brackets of 8 looks like an ideal solution and should go ahead.
SEASON LENGTH.ive seen seasons consisting of 10, 4 and 6 weeks and in my opinion 6 is the ideal length. but this one probably merits a poll.
LAB EVENTS. these are deffinitely some of the most fun of all games here but would agree that the number of these over the last few weeks has become very hard to keep up with. i suggest that as mentioned. the admins should have some kind of scheduling imput. no more than 1 event should run at any one time. each given a 4 week time slot for completion. if they are not fulfilled in this time then they are ended. if completed before the 4 weeks is up then the next event due is brought forward. after recieving sufficient feedback from interested members. proposals should then be put forward to the admins and allocated a time slot on a first come basis.
PRO SECTION.if the introduction of multiple playoff brackets is implemented then should we continue with the pro leaderboard or should pro events be dealt with by the lab. again probably merits a poll.
thats about all i can think of.
thx neil
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Post by thebeezer on Oct 24, 2009 7:03:05 GMT -5
Definitely agree that we should have as many brackets of 8 for playoffs as there are AM players - love that idea. Plus it requires minimal changes to our current format to accommodate.
I'm torn on whether lab events should be scheduled or not. I think a lot of the recent concerns have come up because we don't help members setting up tournaments plan for the unexpected. What if instead of the admins having to do more work to administer the lab we make a checklist for setting up tournaments that includes all tournament settings, structure, deadlines for completing rounds, etc. This would allow us to keep it free-flowing while giving members the tools they need to run their tournaments successfully.
I personally would prefer that the PRO event continue as it was run in season 3. If we change the AM tournament so that everyone is in a playoff, then there is no need to exclude the PRO playoff folks from the AM tournament.
Great to see the ideas that are being brought to the table - thanks everyone.
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Post by putterrr on Oct 24, 2009 8:29:01 GMT -5
I'm torn on whether lab events should be scheduled or not. I think a lot of the recent concerns have come up because we don't help members setting up tournaments plan for the unexpected. What if instead of the admins having to do more work to administer the lab we make a checklist for setting up tournaments that includes all tournament settings, structure, deadlines for completing rounds, etc. This would allow us to keep it free-flowing while giving members the tools they need to run their tournaments successfully. beezer I like the idea of a checklist. It would give the person setting up everything they need to present a tourney idea. How about a checklist for participants? If you don't think you can meet the required rounds/time table/whatever, then you don't have to enter. I would rather not have a situation where a small group decides if someone's idea is acceptable or not. I think the whole membership can decide this by their feedback and participation. I rejoined recently not because of the league play but due to the interesting ideas that were being floated around for pick up tourney's.
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Post by putterrr on Oct 24, 2009 8:38:56 GMT -5
HANDICAPING. this has come up several times but untill the actuall games gives us a way to implement this it will allways be too difficult to achieve successfully. Neil It would be nice if the game allowed this but .......... I would suggest that a handicap system be implemented for playoffs. The average rounds are there and strokes can easily be calculated. In the present format, there is no way that certain players can compete on a even basis with others unless they pay off the AHO gods. A member who shoots a 70 average should have as much chance as the guy who shoots 52. This is a members league so all members should have a chance to be the season champ.
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Post by putterrr on Oct 24, 2009 10:06:39 GMT -5
that checklist already existed. admin did provide an entire spreadsheet, listing all the season 3 locations and settings, both for AM and PRO. I was commenting in relation to Lab events only.
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giacomo
Co-Founder
The vessel with the pestle...
Posts: 1,295
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Post by giacomo on Oct 24, 2009 10:39:24 GMT -5
I will put up some polls based on what's been said so far later today. However, DON'T STOP POSTING! This kind of discussion is very helpful to the admins to help us figure out what to do next. I don't know how many changes we'll be able to work in for Season 4, but if the membership is behind some kind of flight system or universal participation in the playoffs, I see no reason that can't be done in Season 4. There's plenty of time to work that out during the season. Net, I will set up polls on the following items: 1. Length of the season (4, 5, 6 tourneys) 2. Flights for playoffs 3. Scheduling of Lab events (NOT approval!) and frequency
I'm not inclined to set up a poll for continuing the PRO tourneys. I don't think we have time to work out a flight model for the Season 4 tourneys; and even if we did, I would still think that because AM and PRO play are really different skill sets, that we would really want to continue both and provide flights for both.
Are there other polls we need to run at this time? Keep talking and let me know-
G.
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TheJokker
Co-Founder[M0n:-2500]
Why So Serious ?
Posts: 1,045
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Post by TheJokker on Oct 24, 2009 10:40:23 GMT -5
I also felt that season 3 was a very good season, a very similar format should be maintained.
I also understand some concern regarding allowing all players who completed the season to have some form of play-off rounds. If the Pro play-offs were handled the same that part should work fine. The Amateur ranks however, could have 2, 3 or 4 groups of players. for example . . .
Top 8 amateur finishers would be as before, with the winner receiving the crown for amateur champion. The next 8 players who complete the season would have another bracket to play in the play-offs for the experience and fun of match play events and the match-up fun with another player. Then the next 8, then the next 8 and so on . . .
This way all who complete the season would have the opportunity to gain experience and have some additional fun.
If we set deadlines for each stage of the play-offs, any players who don't get they're match due to they're opponent as a no show after reasonable attempts to contact the other player for a match, would move up the bracket with a DQ on they're opponent.
Once again however, any player who qualifies for a higher level play-offs bracket (Pro) would be removed from the lower bracket (Amateur).
As for a round in the season to be with an un-built profile golfer, that would be a problem for me because I have 4 fully built profiles on my system, I have no slot left for an un-built profile. I have 4 built profiles for my friends and family to use when they come to my house. I would however be willing to use the worst stock character in the game to try to level the playing field, but that would not really work because the stock character would still have higher attributes than an un-built profile golfer.
I would like to suggest a round in our season using the hippy girl, LeBlanc simply because I think shes cute and everyone gets a kick out of using a female persona. She does not play very well so it would create some interesting matches.
Perhaps a round using Irons only would be fun as well but we should only have 1 round per season that does not use the profile golfer.
I have also considered a way to determine the courses for a season that could be fun. This would need to be done quickly though to avoid delays in the start of the season. If we created a POLL, with all the courses in the POLL, with a yes or no option. This would be to allow members to vote on what courses would be used for the next season. Everyone would have a single vote for they're favorite course, then the top 6 are used for the season. In the event of a tie for the 6th course, giacomo would simply choose which course.
Thinking out loud again, TheJokker
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TheJokker
Co-Founder[M0n:-2500]
Why So Serious ?
Posts: 1,045
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Post by TheJokker on Oct 24, 2009 10:52:01 GMT -5
I should also comment on other ideas on this thread . . .
I like the 6 week season . . .
To many Special events at one time is an issue, we need to consider some form of scheduling control from the admins. When a new event is proposed, it could be scheduled after the completion of the previous event.
The teams event is used to fill the void between seasons and seems to be a lot of fun. It has become a regular event, but I am also flexible regarding the scheduling of my event. So long as we have some form of fun event during the play-offs, then we have something to do when we don't have any League event to play.
There should also be a few simple requirements for special events . . . for example . . .
Must have a thread where rules and settings are specified in a NEW thread rather than down a few pages in an existing thread.
Must have a Sign-up thread
Must have a Tee-Times thread
Must have a Post Scores thread
Must have some type of Leader Board thread
With these simple individual threads, it is easier to play and score the event. Everyone will understand the process if we keep it very similar in all events.
Additional thoughts, TheJokker
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