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Post by pythagoras345 on Sept 25, 2010 15:07:29 GMT -5
Ok guys (and gals), I am sorry for this, but there is a major error in a point of my strategy, that needs to be corrected! I think Cowboy nailed this in a post, but I will elaborate. The error in my ways was that I did this bag tune before I knew you could change the loft of a club to manipulate distance. This is a better strategy than percentage shots in my opinion.
Since learning this I spent the morning documenting all these different shots. So far I have done driver down to the 5i in and I am learning some sick stuff. I am hitting every shot at center, ½ up, full up, ½ down and full down. I am documenting landing distance and final distance.
While the 1i punch does replace the 3i full shot rather nicely, and thus still a valuable option vs a 3i full based on trajectory differences, wind affect, poor lie etc. But you should NOT replace the 3i with the 2i. Now that I have played with the loft / deloft of the 3i, I realize it gives you better options in this distance range than the combination of the 2i and 2i punch. Sorry Tiger, the 2i is GONE. (but the 1i punch is not). This is because (as Cowboy discovered) the 1 and 2 iron punches have little response to loft / deloft changes.
Here are top 3 tips I learned so far today:
1. On any of the long clubs 5i+ and Woods, delofting is not recommended. This affects distance erratically and increases roll and actually does not increase distance. You can not hit your driver further by delofting – the 8.5 degree club face and club tune is maximized for distance already. So far, this holds true all the way down to 5i. My guess is that when I hit the wedges, delofting WILL add distance, I will let you know.
2. Lofting works GREAT. This takes distance off, and it is rather linear. With my current bag, the most deloft of the upper club brings me to the same shot distance as the center ball swing of the lower club. Meaning the gaps are filled perfect, and there is never a need for a percentage swing from 315 yards down to 185 yards. So for distance control in wood or iron distance ranges, always take the higher club and hit below center to take distance down. And never adjust to hit higher on the ball in an attempt to add distance.
3. Loft is SICK SICK SICK for driver PUNCHES. A lofted 8.5 driver punch can be dialed between a shot that goes 320 yards with 270 yards carry to a screaming line drive that goes 300 yards, but with only 230 yards carry. This club and shot selection is a FIR DREAM on tight courses or windy days, but is probably not ideal for slow fairways.
More to come once I get through all the clubs!
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Post by cocowboy on Sept 25, 2010 15:59:04 GMT -5
You weren't wrong on the 2 Iron. You just haven't played a few hundred rounds with the loft approach.
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Post by pythagoras345 on Sept 25, 2010 20:10:34 GMT -5
Cowboy, I read your other post under bag tune.
So now what we (you) think is that even though the 3i with different loft positions gives you a better a coverage range than that the 2i, your going with the 2i.
That is because it follows the punch rules and goes straighter and smoother on miturdss, winds, etc. which outweighs the coverage range. And if you find the coverage is not perfect, you can use learn the percentage swing for the low iron punches.
However, how do you feel about the coverage between your mid-irons, wedges and chipping? Since that is not the smooth stroke of a punch, I am guessing you will still use the ball loft in those spots?
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Post by cocowboy on Sept 25, 2010 22:21:44 GMT -5
The vast majority of par 4s even from the black tees are a driver and wedge. I likely continue to use loft for those, and loft can be fairly accurate for wedges. Perhaps one day I will have the confidence in the % game to play it with wedges, too.
As it appears there is little gap between the 2 punch and full 5 Iron, but I can cover that with a percentage 2 punch. There is no gap below that.
The real convincer for me was the 2 punch landing on a very hard, very fast green and sticking. I can't tell you how many times I've looked at pins tight up against the front of the green behind a bunker like Pebble 17. I use to try to land it on the fringe. That is such a low percentage shot that I no longer even try it. I just play for par and accept the long putt or pitch coming back. In fact, on Pebble 17 I started playing to the right lobe and learned to putt to the left lobe. Its almost a lock 2 putt.
I am trying the 9 Iron for now instead of the PW, but I willl flip back to the PW in a heart beat when I see a few too many cases of needing it for a pitch.
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Post by pythagoras345 on Sept 25, 2010 23:09:37 GMT -5
I am trying the 9 Iron for now instead of the PW, but I willl flip back to the PW in a heart beat when I see a few too many cases of needing it for a pitch. My solution to this was that the punch shot of the bottom 3 wedges are the exact same as the PW pitch. Even with less roll. Once I found these, I felt the PW was not needed, but you also have to play the percentage game with these from 50 - 65 yards since they are punches. That might make the PW better now that I know the loft option. I actually miss the PW chip. If I like the lofting, I might drop the AW for PW, since it has same coverage area, on full shot and I would pick up the 14 yard chip again. So, i am currently trying the PW over the AW. But if you want to get pratice with the percentage game, there is no better way that using the bottom 3 wedge punch shots in place of your PW pitch!
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jturner125
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Post by jturner125 on Sept 26, 2010 7:33:25 GMT -5
A couple of other things to consider when trying to keep the ball on the green when coming in with long irons. Up hill is easier...and for me it is better to take a longer club and loft it...this allows distance control plus a softer landing. I use 4 back tics for a 10 yard drop in distance in my irons. When wind is a factor, almost always is, you can use this to your advantage....use your normal alignment to adjust for wind carry, but then add open/close club face to match wind speed (opposing the wind). This will have a dramatic effect on letting the ball drop with much less forward motion. Takes practice, but it does not need to be exact to work well. If OBs are surrounding the back of the hole - I might prefer to come up short, even in a bunker. With a bit of practice, most bunker shots can be used to setup a one putt. Delofting my wedges almost always gives more distance and works well for in between club shots. I still prefer to use too much club and loft or softer my swing rather than try a squeeze distance from a club (as pyth has noted) The exception to this is when there is a large drop in elevation versus the distance to the hole. Punch shots in general do not work as well as full. Every now and then yes, but there are too many other "variables to consider", usually something between you and the hole, including the front of the green which generally can have a steep or slanted slope. I think you will find that it is better to go "over" as much of the ground as you can to get to the hole. But......if you find something that works well for you..great! The features in TW11 are so realistic to real golf - it's kind of freaky! But if the punch shot works that well, I think more pros would use it more often. As for percentage shots - it is all in the hands of the player. Some players use this exceptionally well, my hats off to them because I am not one of them. Lastly, I have delofted my irons - but only in special occasions when I have found myself under a tree etc. and needed to ensure a low ball trajectory. You may find this useful some day on Predator... :-). But then, I sincerely doubt this will be played in TPX settings.... Keep up the good work pyth ..... If you are not on the tee I'll look for you at the tuning range! Jim
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Post by pythagoras345 on Sept 26, 2010 11:59:16 GMT -5
I think I am done with the tuner. I am ready to take the show on the road. Here are my final thoughts regarding lofting.
1. I am going to keep the 2i. The punch just lands too soft and too sweet. It will give me a small distance gap around 210-220, that a lofted 3 iron would have covered. But I will play the percentage game with my 2 iron punch to cover this to keep the precision and accuracy advantage of this shot.
2. Delofting clubs does start to add distance once you hit the gap wedge and all pitches. So my above concept, for all iron and wood of taking higher club and lofting is the best way to cover gaps.
3. There is tremedous cross over on the wedges. Meaning for in between distances you can loft the higher club or deloft the lower club. This is great, and both should be used based on landing area or wind. Loft higher wedge for no release or pull back. Deloft lower club for short roll. If shot allows for either, I like the deloft with 2 yards of roll (I like to try to hole out). Wind will also play a factor. I never fight the wind but use the wind. So if tail wind I deloft lower club so wind move ball towards hole. If it head wind, I loft higher club and letting wind stop and drop in on the flag.
4. Lofting / Delofting has provided me with a small strategy change. The PW can easily cover the same full swing yardage as the AW now. The PW pitch can be lofted all the way to meet the GW delofted pitch. So from full swing and pitch, these clubs are the same. So I switched to the PW for the chipping.
5. Lofting has saved the day for chipping!!! In most golf games, chipping is a huge scoring shot, but i was really struggling with it as I could not get my chips over the slightest amount of rough or up even the smallest hill. Loft your 3 chip options fully and you got yourself a nice putter from the rough. In first round i used 3 times. 1 made, 1 lip, 1 poor swing and it curve around cup for 8% tap in par. (note that square / square takes a unique swing for chips)
6. I am not giving up on the bottom 3 wedge punches that act like pitches. This distance range can be covered my a delofted PW now in the 60 yard range. But the delofted PW actually has more roll. I will use the PW pitch from center (59 yds) to lofted (49yds) back the the GW. But 60 - 70 yards, if I need no roll, i will still punch bottom 3 wedges.
7. I mentioned I don't see value in delofting longer clubs because it does not give you distance. This was in reference to my strategy for club gap coverage. However, these shot have use in the wind as Cowboy suggested and from the trees and Jturner suggested. But these are not really to add distance but just to keep a low flight path.
Ok that does it for my game. I have it on paper. Time to hit the links and start dropping my scores!
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jturner125
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Post by jturner125 on Sept 28, 2010 2:44:07 GMT -5
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Post by richkelley on Oct 1, 2010 4:41:57 GMT -5
hey pyth. good work, you give me a lot of food for thought and some new things to try. in general i only use the punch when under trees or a clear path to the green. i need to try some more options to improve my game. thanx again
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Dude1956
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Post by Dude1956 on Oct 2, 2010 23:25:10 GMT -5
I have deleted the last 2 posts in this thread. Please keep the threads on topic here. If you have problems with other members, please PM them or myself and the Admins.
Thanks, Dude
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